Dual Wield Q&A

[Hymn]

Figured it was about time I rewrote this post to reflect how the thread has developed.

Lets begin with some basic knowledge, then go into some spec options, then peruse what will happen in 3.0.8

A bit about hit rating

Strikes are capped at 8% hit
Spells are capped at 17% hit.
Several things increase spell hit chances, including the talent Virulence, and a debuff provided by a few of our caster friends. these stack. So if you have 3/3 virulence (this is probably a good idea) and the debuff, gear for 11% spell hit. its near mandatory for any DW spec based around Howling Blast (which is most of them).
Keep in mind that Spell Hit and Melee Hit scale differently with Hit Rating. You need 26.2 hit rating for 1% chance to hit with spells and 32.7 hit rating for 1% hit to melee attacks.

Some basics on stats and their usefulness

Str, 1 pt in str will give 2 attack power. All DK spells scale with attack power, and thus strength. The death knights ghoul scales with strength, not with attack power. Thus making it the better stat for any perma-ghoul build by far
Crit, this increases killing machine procs, which increases the chance that howling blast will autocrit. As both of these talents generally exist in every dual wield build, you can expect crit to be your friend.
Haste, increases white damage, BCB (Blood-caked blade) damage, necrosis damage, and killing machine proc chances, by giving you more opportunities to crit.
Expertise, while expertise will only help your strikes land, it's still important to not be constantly wasting gcd using plaguestrike over and over again, so this is not a worthless stat.
Armor Pen, this is low on the list as much of our damage simply wont be affected by this, and the rewards for the armor pen rating are low to begin with, so even pure melee classes arent in love with it.

Some basics on rotations

I think its safe to say that most DWers aren't going to be using glyph of plaguestrike, and most WILL have glacier rot. This means you want to start out with a plague strike, so that there is a disease on the target for your icy touch. From there, lets look down the talent tree to killing machine, which again, most DW builds will pick up. This causes IT and HB to auto-crit. Guess what you don't want to happen? that's right, you don't want to use KM on an IT. So if we place them near each other in the rotation, you can wait a single GCD and use HB instead on the KM proc.

To recap at this point, we're expecting most rotations to look like this right now. PS>IT>HB.
Now even further into the frost tree is yet another talent almost every DW build picks up, rime. If Rime procs, you can easily use the second part of your first rotation to simply PS>IT again. This is going to yield more damage than BS>BS, for the GCDs that you're using. So if rime procs, your rotation would look like this PS>IT>HB>PS>IT>DC/dump. as you notice I simply skipped using any BS in there at all. If you find you have the free GCD, sub in the BS, if not, leave it out. If rime does not proc, your first rotation would look like this PS>IT>HB>BS>BS>DC/dump.

So then comes the second rotation, until the upcoming patch, HB still has a cooldown, so you're going to want to use the same rotation, with a minor adjustment. PS>IT>HB>BS/DC>BS/DC what this means is, deathcoil (or frost strike if you've picked it up) is going to do more than bloodstrike, so use it over it priority wise.

And now, some basics on specs

The trispec 13/32/26. This focuses on taking advantage of bladed armors large AP boost, to turn your gargoyle into a dps machine, while taking the over budget perma ghoul talent, and keeping the standard KM-HB frost talents. Glyphs: IT/Ghoul/plaguestrike/whatever you want

The GoG (Guile of Gorefiend) spec 0/44/27(or 0/44/27) Drops the AP/crit from blood in return for turning HB's crit damage into some pretty frightening numbers. Glyph: IT/Ghoul/Wildcard or FS come 3.0.8

The Crypt fever/Bone shield spec 0/32/39. This chooses to sacrifice the points in blood, in return for extra disease damage, 7% increased dps (form bone shield/desecration) and often a point in Night of the Dead to keep the ghoul popping out on fights that kill him. Glyph: IT/Ghoul/Bone Shield

What will change in 3.0.8?

Howling blasts cooldown is removed, meaning that our rotations and specs will change. The most likely turn of events will be to stop using the trispec, in favor of one of the other builds which can create death runes.
Expect rotations to look more like PS>IT>HB>BS>BS>DC/DUMP --> HB>HB>HB>DC/DUMP. This should raise the importance of crit rating some, as killing machine will be up for less howling blasts.

Edited for typos, I swear English is my native language, though sometimes I wish it weren't so I'd have an excuse.

Just wanted to include a little plug for my site here for some more permenancy. I'd like people interested in inteligent theory to take a few min and head over to www.plaguechill.com

[mibsweden]

I am needed to provide the Unholy aura by my guild, and I am wondering about this spec:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=2305000300000000000000000003200535000502012301000000000230201305003114000100000000000

[Hymn]

the link you gave seems to link to my build, not your edited version.

As for some places to draw points, probably your only choice is to take points out of the blood tree. You can free up one point in frost from merciless combat, because it's not that huge of an overall DPS loss.

[Hatepark]

Hello Hymn,

I have been following your post in another thread.  You have sparked my interest on DWing since you are producing about 800-1000 more dps than my current spec as Blood.  I was wondering if you would armory my character and look at my current gear: name is Hatepark on Bleeding Hollow.  Tell me if you think I could benifit from switching from Blood to your spec that I printed out.  Also, my only good one hander as of right now is the sword from Heroic UP.  I would have to craft the titansteel mace that you have if I decide to go DW. 

I would appreciate your opinion on my gear to see if it would start me out DWing and I am always striving to be the best dps I can be in the raids.  My current Patchwerk fight in the 10 man this week was only 2860.

Once again, my character is named Hatepark on Bleeding Hollow.

Also, do you find yourself doing really well on fights that you move around alot... in and out of combat, like Saph?

Thanks,

Hatepark

[Diseased]

Saph is pretty tricky, due to our pet not having very good survivability.

On fights where you have to move alot and lose good dps time, I tend to fall behind other melee due to having to always start my rotation over. Get alot of Wasted Rime and KM procs etc.

[Hymn]

Hello Hymn,

I have been following your post in another thread.  You have sparked my interest on DWing since you are producing about 800-1000 more dps than my current spec as Blood.  I was wondering if you would armory my character and look at my current gear: name is Hatepark on Bleeding Hollow.  Tell me if you think I could benifit from switching from Blood to your spec that I printed out.  Also, my only good one hander as of right now is the sword from Heroic UP.  I would have to craft the titansteel mace that you have if I decide to go DW. 

I would appreciate your opinion on my gear to see if it would start me out DWing and I am always striving to be the best dps I can be in the raids.  My current Patchwerk fight in the 10 man this week was only 2860.

Once again, my character is named Hatepark on Bleeding Hollow.

Also, do you find yourself doing really well on fights that you move around alot... in and out of combat, like Saph?

Thanks,

Hatepark

It's just before raid time so I'll have to come back to answer some of this. but specifically on sapph, I find myself being competitive, but not nearly the numbers i do on a fight more tailored to the spec. Also we can hope that in a patch or so our ghouls will have more survivability!

[Naalupani]

It's good to see numbers to attach to talents..

Shows that BCB is better than its theoretical 15% auto-attack boost (30% chance to proc 50% damage). I'm guessing this is because of the off-hand proccing the main hand damage.

Necrosis is also slightly ahead of it's 10%, probably due to no armor mitigation..

Was the Ghoul out for this fight? Can't see his contribution counted anywhere..

[bear5470]

Hey hymn i ran naxx 10 for the first time last night and was top dps on a few fights and always at least in the top three. On most bosses i was around 2k dps depending on movement.
my armory http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Duskwood&n=Deathbeer

After looking at your gear and spec it looks like ive been stacking hit too much. so do you recomend dropping back down to around 295 and just stacking str and crit? It just seems like the misses wouldnt raise my dps.
Also do you tend to wait for howling blast to come off cooldown if killing machine procs, seemed to happen to me alot on bosses, or do you just continue with your rotation.

[Antimoni]

Hymn, thank you for making this thread! I was intrigued by your spec and tried it out myself last week. unfortunately i wasn't doing as well as your numbers, but i think that was more due to my blue quality weapons. I have since gotten a Hatestrike and would like to try again after getting a bonecrusher ^^

while i figured out the basic rotation you posted, how do you deal with Rime procs and the extra runes with the lack of obliterate? i remember you saying in the DPS thread you do not use obliterate, do you change things around at all?

when i was testing on target dummies as that spec, i found myself pulling more dps while in unholy presence, while my boyfriend insisted i should be doing more in blood. do you dps in blood or unholy presence?

Although i wasn't able to test out all combinations, i also found myself pulling better numbers with Rune of Cinderglacier on main hand, Crusader on Offhand. which rune enchants worked out best for you? (i noticed you were using razorice before but you're cinderglacier now, any specifics on the change?)

[Lakina]

OK first post on this Forum.

First of all thanks for this nice specc. Used it on my first visit in Naxx 10 on Sunday and i did some great dps. Eventhough I felt kinda low on dps ,compared to our other dd guys,as you can see from our WWS http://wowwebstats.com/weov3gmivxqxo.(for example patchwork. Only 2.3 k dps seems quite low)

Maybe im using the wrong rotation which is it-ps-bs-bs-hb till i got full rp then i summon my garg(ghoul should be up all the time) and thenn im using the "it-ps-bs-bs-hb" rotation till the end of garg(normaly i can keep him up till he dies) after that i use the same rotation just with the addition of dc to dump my rp.

Maybe my gear is to crappy atm, still not hitcapped and raidbuffed only 4k AP 10%crit and 7% hit(btw armory still showing me in tankgear and tankspecc got 2/5 t7 and some random epics from naxx and badge vendor rest is still blue, also changed your build cause im using 2h so i used those 3 point i took out of nerves of cold stell into +30 runepower).

[blackcatxiii]

The only question i have for your build is - why do you have 1 point in death grip?

[mibsweden]

the link you gave seems to link to my build, not your edited version.

As for some places to draw points, probably your only choice is to take points out of the blood tree. You can free up one point in frost from merciless combat, because it's not that huge of an overall DPS loss.

Something like this then?

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=2303000000000000000000000003200535000502011301000000000230200315003115003100200000000

Virulence should be better than OUtbreak, but I am not sure so I am asking your advice.

I have the 1-hander from revered rep with Knights of the Ebon Blade as main hand, and the honored off-hand from Wyrmrest Accord.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44250 and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44187

[Hymn]

Was the Ghoul out for this fight? Can't see his contribution counted anywhere..

It appears for this log or this fight the ghoul was not properly added to *my* damage. I believe he is however floating around if you'd like to add the two together.

After looking at your gear and spec it looks like ive been stacking hit too much. so do you recomend dropping back down to around 295 and just stacking str and crit? It just seems like the misses wouldnt raise my dps.
Also do you tend to wait for howling blast to come off cooldown if killing machine procs, seemed to happen to me alot on bosses, or do you just continue with your rotation.

So far my DPS seems to scale better with str/AP than with hit past 9%. If anyone who is really stacking hit can give me some numbers that would be much appreciated.

Killing machine procs almost constantly for me, so I dont have to mess up my rotation too much, I will attempt to use DCs or BSs to hold over for it on occasion but my primary concern is to not waste GCDs.

while i figured out the basic rotation you posted, how do you deal with Rime procs and the extra runes with the lack of obliterate? i remember you saying in the DPS thread you do not use obliterate, do you change things around at all?

IT>PS does more damage for me than BS>BS so when rime procs I often throw an additional IT>PS with my GCD. The additional RP generated from IT then usually gets me an extra DC or allows me to DC while the garg is up if timed well.

when i was testing on target dummies as that spec, i found myself pulling more dps while in unholy presence, while my boyfriend insisted i should be doing more in blood. do you dps in blood or unholy presence?

I use blood and havent been able to find any substantial numbers to prove I should be in unholy. I have however gotten enough questions about this in the last day that I will do some more testing when I get home tonight and post any unexpected results.

Although i wasn't able to test out all combinations, i also found myself pulling better numbers with Rune of Cinderglacier on main hand, Crusader on Offhand. which rune enchants worked out best for you? (i noticed you were using razorice before but you're cinderglacier now, any specifics on the change?)

My runes have been changing based on testing and raid makeup. We'll have at least 3 mages in naxx tonight so I'm going to use razorice again, when we don't I find that Crusader and cinderglacier give better dps than the other options. The difference is incredibly marginal at current scale.

Maybe im using the wrong rotation which is it-ps-bs-bs-hb till i got full rp then i summon my garg(ghoul should be up all the time) and thenn im using the "it-ps-bs-bs-hb" rotation till the end of garg(normaly i can keep him up till he dies) after that i use the same rotation just with the addition of dc to dump my rp.

This is pretty much my rotation, I tend to try and be fancy and get in DCs during gargoyle, but otherwise pretty similiar.

Maybe my gear is to crappy atm, still not hitcapped and raidbuffed only 4k AP 10%crit and 7% hit(btw armory still showing me in tankgear and tankspecc got 2/5 t7 and some random epics from naxx and badge vendor rest is still blue, also changed your build cause im using 2h so i used those 3 point i took out of nerves of cold stell into +30 runepower).

The spec does not work as well using a 2her, because it avoids using strikes when possible. If you are tot ry I'd suggest moving the 3 points into annihilation instead and using obliterate on rime procs.

The only question i have for your build is - why do you have 1 point in death grip?

If you look at my OP, I said that it's there because we were learning malygos and reducing the cooldown felt worthwhile compared to 1% spell hit. We downed him tonight and I'm less worried about it so I'll change back next time I respec. (I did note that it would be better in virulence in the post)

Something like this then?
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=2303000000000000000000000003200535000502011301000000000230200315003115003100200000000
Virulence should be better than OUtbreak, but I am not sure so I am asking your advice.

Yeah if you're modifying the build to do the best it can and have unholy presence I think thats the best way to go about it. 1pt in outbreak vs 1pt in virulence is something that I'd call a roll of the dice. Virulence will increase your boss dps slightly, outbreak your raid dps slightly.

[phoenixzorn]

Hymn, what glyphs are you using?  I have tanking Glyphs on now, and I'd keep the DnD one, because it's just plain funny, and saves the tank from a lot of damage if it procs - and it usually procs 2-3 times in a row, keeping all the mobs from hitting anyone for 6 seconds.  Epic is all I can say.

I have Icy Touch, DnD, and Bone Shield - the latter which will go away when I find out which one I'm supposed to have in the third slot.  I'm thinking the pet one, since I used your spec, and have Corpseflinger out all the time now.

For minors, I have Horn of Winter, Pestilence, and Blood Tap, which I'm sure are also not right for this build... but again, I have the pet glyph in the bank that returns 20RP when I summon him.... not great, not horrible either.

I see your DPS is at 3800+ on Patchwerk, but right now I don't have access to him.  I was wondering what your DPS is on the Boss Level training Dummy in Ebon Hold is... as well as on the level 80 dummies in the same place, just for comparison.  I'm doing 2890DPS on the level 80 Dummies - with AoE - and 1700DPS on the Boss level dummy.

My Armory is ever changing, and I just replaced 3 pieces of gear and went down to 250 hit with as many hit gems as I could socket.  I would have used pure hit gems, but I had the others in my bank from Mining.  Hopefully by the time you see my armory, it will have been updated with the new gear.

On that note, with the 338 Hit rating I have in the other gear - and 4% less Crit, I miss 8% of the time on average with melee hits.  With the 250 hit I have in my current gear, I miss 19% of the time, but oddly enough, my DPS stays very close to the same, around 1780 on the boss dummies.

I've got the Ebon Blade rep sword in my main hand, and the Wyrmrest rep sword in my offhand for the extra hit over Meathook's Slicer, Cinderglacier main, Fallen Champion offhand.

While typing this I got up to 3500DPS on dummies in Ebon Hold, and 282 hit...

[Hymn]

The glyphs I use are:
Deaths Embrace (At first I avoided this but it turns out I love it)
Pestilence
Horn of Winter
Icy Touch
Ghoul
Icebound Fortitude (I love my free oh shit button).